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Corner velocity

Last post 05-07-1999, 2:31 AM by anonymous2. 49 replies.
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  •  05-05-1999, 1:21 AM 266 in reply to 263

    Re:Corner velocity

    *** Posted by Rapier ***
    [I guess that just shows that the flight sims are not that accurate after all. If you are above 29' AOA in the real jet, its out of control. Where did you get your information about the airshows ? The switch has no function unless you are out of control.

    RUN]

    Hi RUN,

    On the contrary, I've just been reading through the Falcon 4 manual and Tiger can confirm this to (page 17-10). It states and I quote:

    "The AOA indicator displays the current angle of attack numerically on a moving tape. The range is +or- 32 degrees. The tape is colour-coded from 9-17 degrees, corresponding to the colours of the AOA indexer".

    This contradicts what you said about 29 degrees. I dont know maybe it's different because Falcon 4 is based on an F16C Block 50/52. I dont know what to belive now. What could the reason be.

    I overheard a conversation at the Farnborough Airshow. Capt Erik C.Houston was his name and he said that they will use the overide to increase the perfomance and incase of an emegency. Is this true or was he bullshitting us, because he came across as a cocky type of guy. I was'nt sure if I could believe him or not.


    Thanks.

    Rapier
    The Anonymous account was just used to import messages from our old Forum. Anonymous posts are no longer an option ;)
  •  05-05-1999, 1:40 AM 270 in reply to 266

    Re:Corner velocity

    *** Posted by RUN ***
    [Hi RUN,

    On the contrary, I've just been reading through the Falcon 4 manual and Tiger can confirm this to (page 17-10). It states and I quote:

    "The AOA indicator displays the current angle of attack numerically on a moving tape. The range is +or- 32 degrees. The tape is colour-coded from 9-17 degrees, corresponding to the colours of the AOA indexer".

    This contradicts what you said about 29 degrees. I dont know maybe it's different because Falcon 4 is based on an F16C Block 50/52. I dont know what to belive now. What could the reason be.

    I overheard a conversation at the Farnborough Airshow. Capt Erik C.Houston was his name and he said that they will use the overide to increase the perfomance and incase of an emegency. Is this true or was he bullshitting us, because he came across as a cocky type of guy. I was'nt sure if I could believe him or not.


    Thanks.

    Rapier]

    It is true that the range on the indicator goes to +32, and thats normally where it is peeked when you are out of control. Just because your speedometer goes to 240 km/h doesn't mean your car can go that fast ;o)

    I think Capt Housten was bullshitting you or maybe he just doesn't know his systems.

    RUN
    The Anonymous account was just used to import messages from our old Forum. Anonymous posts are no longer an option ;)
  •  05-05-1999, 2:11 AM 277 in reply to 270

    Re:Corner velocity

    *** Posted by Rapier ***
    [It is true that the range on the indicator goes to +32, and thats normally where it is peeked when you are out of control. Just because your speedometer goes to 240 km/h doesn't mean your car can go that fast ;o)

    I think Capt Housten was bullshitting you or maybe he just doesn't know his systems.

    RUN ]

    So where the hell did they get +36' from. I understand what your trying to say now, you dont need to be all the way upto +36 to loose control, you can loose control at 29'. Is that what you mean?

    I bet that Capt Houston was bullshitting. Now when I look back he seemed like a good guy but was always bragging about how good he was on the UTAH weapons testing grounds. If he was telling a load of crap I will not be impressed, infact I will be very sad because he has lied to me to make me belive otherwise about the F16. I have my own theories about the F16 and I hate all this classified crap, it makes the F16 look worst than it really is.

    I'm sorry I'm not sounding off at you or anything I'm just frustrated, thats all.

    Thanks RUN

    Rapier
    The Anonymous account was just used to import messages from our old Forum. Anonymous posts are no longer an option ;)
  •  05-05-1999, 2:43 AM 282 in reply to 277

    Re:Corner velocity

    *** Posted by RUN ***
    Why are you writing about 36' ? You said it said 32' in the f4 man.

    The normal range is -5 - +25 degrees AOA, which means that anything outside is out of control. At the initial stage of an out of control situation the a/c can actually be within these limits.

    Above 25 degrees AOA both horizontal tails are commanded to full trailing edge down by the pitch axis of the FLCS to try to reduce the AOA.

    Above 29 degrees AOA the yaw rate limiter provides antispin inputs to the rudder, flaperons & horizontal tails.
    Above 29 degrees is also the point where the MPO switch is functional for positive stick inputs.

    RUN


    [RUN

    So where the hell did they get +36' from. I understand what your trying to say now, you dont need to be all the way upto +36 to loose control, you can loose control at 29'. Is that what you mean?

    I bet that Capt Houston was bullshitting. Now when I look back he seemed like a good guy but was always bragging about how good he was on the UTAH weapons testing grounds. If he was telling a load of crap I will not be impressed, infact I will be very sad because he has lied to me to make me belive otherwise about the F16. I have my own theories about the F16 and I hate all this classified crap, it makes the F16 look worst than it really is.

    I'm sorry I'm not sounding off at you or anything I'm just frustrated, thats all.

    Thanks RUN

    Rapier]
    The Anonymous account was just used to import messages from our old Forum. Anonymous posts are no longer an option ;)
  •  05-05-1999, 3:21 AM 283 in reply to 282

    Re:Corner velocity

    *** Posted by Rapier ***
    [Why are you writing about 36' ? You said it said 32' in the f4 man.

    The normal range is -5 - +25 degrees AOA, which means that anything outside is out of control. At the initial stage of an out of control situation the a/c can actually be within these limits.

    Above 25 degrees AOA both horizontal tails are commanded to full trailing edge down by the pitch axis of the FLCS to try to reduce the AOA.

    Above 29 degrees AOA the yaw rate limiter provides antispin inputs to the rudder, flaperons & horizontal tails.
    Above 29 degrees is also the point where the MPO switch is functional for positive stick inputs.

    RUN]

    Yes sorry 32 not 36. So what your saying is that the FLCS is actually helping the pilot to regain control of a potentially out of control situation. It makes sense for the FLCS to do this.

    Rapier
    The Anonymous account was just used to import messages from our old Forum. Anonymous posts are no longer an option ;)
  •  05-05-1999, 7:41 AM 284 in reply to 283

    Re:Corner velocity

    *** Posted by run ***
    Yes, but a lot of times it doesn't do the trick and the pilot has to rock the aircraft out with the MPO

    RUN

    [Yes sorry 32 not 36. So what your saying is that the FLCS is actually helping the pilot to regain control of a potentially out of control situation. It makes sense for the FLCS to do this.

    Rapier]
    The Anonymous account was just used to import messages from our old Forum. Anonymous posts are no longer an option ;)
  •  05-05-1999, 10:11 PM 286 in reply to 266

    Re:Corner velocity

    *** Posted by TIGER ***
    Hi Rapier
    You are right about AoA but you should know that the range from 29-32 it was designed to show the AoA in an uncontroled flight so that you know you are in a deep stall.
    You should also know when you design an indicator you must let a little range for safety. A car with an indicator at 220 km/h the max speed of the car will be around 210 km/h.
    TIGER


    [Hi RUN,

    On the contrary, I've just been reading through the Falcon 4 manual and Tiger can confirm this to (page 17-10). It states and I quote:

    "The AOA indicator displays the current angle of attack numerically on a moving tape. The range is +or- 32 degrees. The tape is colour-coded from 9-17 degrees, corresponding to the colours of the AOA indexer".

    This contradicts what you said about 29 degrees. I dont know maybe it's different because Falcon 4 is based on an F16C Block 50/52. I dont know what to belive now. What could the reason be.

    I overheard a conversation at the Farnborough Airshow. Capt Erik C.Houston was his name and he said that they will use the overide to increase the perfomance and incase of an emegency. Is this true or was he bullshitting us, because he came across as a cocky type of guy. I was'nt sure if I could believe him or not.


    Thanks.

    Rapier]
    The Anonymous account was just used to import messages from our old Forum. Anonymous posts are no longer an option ;)
  •  05-05-1999, 10:25 PM 287 in reply to 261

    Re:Corner velocity

    *** Posted by TIGER ***
    Hi Rapier
    In real life you use no more than 9.5 Gs. Run can confirm you that.
    Only russians uses to avoid a missile more than 9Gs. But that is not a good solution. At more than 9Gs the plane can enter in a very bad sit. and you are dead already, you loose to much speed I mean energy (turn rate) , you can be desorientated for a short period of time and that makes you an easy target for the enemy, etc.
    The pilots are trained to take 9.5 no more than 10 without the G suits.
    TIGER






    [
    Hi Tiger,

    That's right, so why are you using just 9 G's. If you have to get out of a tricky situation then it's there for the taking. I've found the limits in F4 for best turn radius.

    below 5000 ft: 370-380 Knt's
    15000 ft (the measured turn altitude):
    477 Knt's
    above 20000 ft: 480-490 Knts

    This is what I have learned without loosing to much speed Tiger. Your figures may be different.

    Rapier]
    The Anonymous account was just used to import messages from our old Forum. Anonymous posts are no longer an option ;)
  •  05-05-1999, 10:29 PM 288 in reply to 261

    Re:Corner velocity

    *** Posted by TIGER ***
    Hi Rapier
    You don't have to pull 9Gs to achieve the best turn rate. It should be remembered that the SU27, that I am very familiar with, can achieve the best turn rate 22' per second at a speed between 650-700 pulling just 6 Gs. So if you can in F4 to pull 7Gs for 19' per second at a constant speed why don't you do that?
    TIGER





    [That's right, so why are you using just 9 G's. If you have to get out of a tricky situation then it's there for the taking. I've found the limits in F4 for best turn radius.

    below 5000 ft: 370-380 Knt's
    15000 ft (the measured turn altitude):
    477 Knt's
    above 20000 ft: 480-490 Knts

    This is what I have learned without loosing to much speed Tiger. Your figures may be different.

    Rapier



    ]
    The Anonymous account was just used to import messages from our old Forum. Anonymous posts are no longer an option ;)
  •  05-05-1999, 11:01 PM 289 in reply to 286

    Re:Corner velocity

    *** Posted by Rapier ***
    [Hi Rapier
    You are right about AoA but you should know that the range from 29-32 it was designed to show the AoA in an uncontroled flight so that you know you are in a deep stall.
    You should also know when you design an indicator you must let a little range for safety. A car with an indicator at 220 km/h the max speed of the car will be around 210 km/h.
    TIGER

    ]

    Hi Tiger, How you been?

    Yep I understand this now and I tryed this in F4. It seems to be spot on and it was like RUN said you have to make the hits to the rudder and stick to regain the plane with the MPO.

    Thanks for your help.

    Rapier
    The Anonymous account was just used to import messages from our old Forum. Anonymous posts are no longer an option ;)
  •  05-05-1999, 11:08 PM 290 in reply to 287

    Re:Corner velocity

    *** Posted by Rapier ***
    [Hi Rapier
    In real life you use no more than 9.5 Gs. Run can confirm you that.
    Only russians uses to avoid a missile more than 9Gs. But that is not a good solution. At more than 9Gs the plane can enter in a very bad sit. and you are dead already, you loose to much speed I mean energy (turn rate) , you can be desorientated for a short period of time and that makes you an easy target for the enemy, etc.
    The pilots are trained to take 9.5 no more than 10 without the G suits.
    TIGER]

    Hi Tiger,

    I understand what your saying about a bad situation and it's true you can lose too much speed, but dont you think it's up to the pilot to take as much G as possible if it means life or death in a dogfight. I have to agree that a pilot should not take more than 9.5 but in certain cases do he has to take a little more to gain an advantage. Although 9.5 is a hell of alot. We are talking the weight of a small mini. Incredible!

    Rapier
    The Anonymous account was just used to import messages from our old Forum. Anonymous posts are no longer an option ;)
  •  05-05-1999, 11:19 PM 291 in reply to 288

    Re:Corner velocity

    *** Posted by Rapier ***
    [Hi Rapier
    You don't have to pull 9Gs to achieve the best turn rate. It should be remembered that the SU27, that I am very familiar with, can achieve the best turn rate 22' per second at a speed between 650-700 pulling just 6 Gs. So if you can in F4 to pull 7Gs for 19' per second at a constant speed why don't you do that?
    TIGER]

    Hi Tiger,

    Yep the SU-27 is a great aircraft and I also admire Russian planes so if you've got any info about this plane I would'nt mind you letting me know about it because I dont know much about it to be honest. Your right also that you dont have to pull 9G's in the SU to get the best turn rate, but dont forget it's a thrust vectoring machine so I think the SU system helps the pilot sustain less G than necessary and achieving a good turn. You will probably know more about that then me, but it is interesting. The F-16 as you know does not have thrust vectoring (except for the F-16XL) so the pilot will have to pull slightly more than the SU to get a good turn. Come to think about it you have raised an interesting point. Do you know what G the F-16 will be pulling through it's best turn cycle?

    Regards

    Rapier
    The Anonymous account was just used to import messages from our old Forum. Anonymous posts are no longer an option ;)
  •  05-05-1999, 11:19 PM 292 in reply to 290

    Re:Corner velocity

    *** Posted by TIGER ***
    Hi Rapier
    The risks by taking more than 9.5 Gs in an aircraft are more than the risks of avoiding a missile by actual parameters.
    You need to have good energy. At high Gs you waste a lot of energy.

    [Hi Tiger,

    I understand what your saying about a bad situation and it's true you can lose too much speed, but dont you think it's up to the pilot to take as much G as possible if it means life or death in a dogfight. I have to agree that a pilot should not take more than 9.5 but in certain cases do he has to take a little more to gain an advantage. Although 9.5 is a hell of alot. We are talking the weight of a small mini. Incredible!

    Rapier]
    The Anonymous account was just used to import messages from our old Forum. Anonymous posts are no longer an option ;)
  •  05-05-1999, 11:29 PM 293 in reply to 292

    Re:Corner velocity

    *** Posted by Rapier ***
    [Hi Rapier
    The risks by taking more than 9.5 Gs in an aircraft are more than the risks of avoiding a missile by actual parameters.
    You need to have good energy. At high Gs you waste a lot of energy.
    ]

    Hi Tiger,

    Are you talking about potential blackout? because if I was flying a real F-16 I would try and train my body at around the 9.5G and above incase I had to make a real hard turn to avoid being hit by a SAM missle for instance. You might black out after a while but it could mean staying alive a bit longer. I know I would rather blackout after evading a missle than before.

    By the way if you have any tactics for avoiding SAM's I would'nt mind hearing them as that's the area I ok on but not good.

    Thanks

    Rapier
    The Anonymous account was just used to import messages from our old Forum. Anonymous posts are no longer an option ;)
  •  05-05-1999, 11:32 PM 294 in reply to 291

    Re:Corner velocity

    *** Posted by TIGER ***
    Hi Rapier
    First of all the SU27 Flanker it's not a thrust vectoring machine.
    The thrust vect. system was introduced to SU37.
    And about Cobra maneuver:
    1. Cobra maneuver:
    It was first performed by the russian pilot Pugaciov. Second the SU27 don't uses thrust vect. system.
    At speeds between 400-500 km/h the pilot pulls the nose around 80-110' and flies for 3-4 seconds.
    2. Super Cobra maneuver:
    It was performed by an SU37 which uses a thrust vect. system.
    The maneuver consists in:
    At speeds bet. 400-500 km/h the pilot pulls the nose around 140' and flies for 7-8 seconds.
    Yes I'll give more inf. about SU27.
    Here in Romania we are specialised in MIG29 and SU27.
    I think you know that.
    Try in F4 to fly at a speed around 350 kts at 7g and you'll do fine. Why 350 and not 400? because you need a smaller speed for a smaller turn radius.
    By the way where are you from?
    What are you studying?

    TIGER


    [

    Hi Tiger,

    Yep the SU-27 is a great aircraft and I also admire Russian planes so if you've got any info about this plane I would'nt mind you letting me know about it because I dont know much about it to be honest. Your right also that you dont have to pull 9G's in the SU to get the best turn rate, but dont forget it's a thrust vectoring machine so I think the SU system helps the pilot sustain less G than necessary and achieving a good turn. You will probably know more about that then me, but it is interesting. The F-16 as you know does not have thrust vectoring (except for the F-16XL) so the pilot will have to pull slightly more than the SU to get a good turn. Come to think about it you have raised an interesting point. Do you know what G the F-16 will be pulling through it's best turn cycle?

    Regards

    Rapier]
    The Anonymous account was just used to import messages from our old Forum. Anonymous posts are no longer an option ;)
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