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Corner velocity

Last post 05-07-1999, 2:31 AM by anonymous2. 49 replies.
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  •  05-04-1999, 12:58 AM 212

    Corner velocity

    *** Posted by TIGER ***
    Hi RUN
    As you know every fighter has a perfect speed which allow the fighter to make the tightest turn. This speed(corner velocity)for the F16 is between 331-440
    kts. And now my question:
    When you chase a fighter asuming he is at 20000 ft, how do you manage the speed(corn.vel) ? Keeping the speed close to 440 ? I've said close to 440 kts because at 20000 ft the maximum G force is about 6 to keep the speed constant and at 330 kts is between 4-5 Gs. At 5000 ft you can maintain the speed around 440 at 8 Gs and 330 at 7 Gs.
    My tactic is to use the max limit of the corner velocity at high altitudes and the min limit at low altitudes due to smaller turn radius.
    Do you agree with my tactic?
    The fight is in the horiz. plane .
    Thanks John
    TIGER
    The Anonymous account was just used to import messages from our old Forum. Anonymous posts are no longer an option ;)
  •  05-04-1999, 1:37 AM 217 in reply to 212

    Re:Corner velocity

    *** Posted by Run ***
    [Hi RUN
    As you know every fighter has a perfect speed which allow the fighter to make the tightest turn. This speed(corner velocity)for the F16 is between 331-440
    kts. And now my question:
    When you chase a fighter asuming he is at 20000 ft, how do you manage the speed(corn.vel) ? Keeping the speed close to 440 ? I've said close to 440 kts because at 20000 ft the maximum G force is about 6 to keep the speed constant and at 330 kts is between 4-5 Gs. At 5000 ft you can maintain the speed around 440 at 8 Gs and 330 at 7 Gs.
    My tactic is to use the max limit of the corner velocity at high altitudes and the min limit at low altitudes due to smaller turn radius.
    Do you agree with my tactic?
    The fight is in the horiz. plane .
    Thanks John
    TIGER ]

    No, because you don't fight optimal if you stay in the horiz. plane. You need to use the vertical also to get most bang for the buck.

    Its always nice to have a little excess speed to use to snap the nose op for a gunshot, but never go above corner velocity.

    RUN
    The Anonymous account was just used to import messages from our old Forum. Anonymous posts are no longer an option ;)
  •  05-04-1999, 3:10 AM 227 in reply to 212

    Re:Corner velocity

    *** Posted by Rapier ***
    [Hi RUN
    As you know every fighter has a perfect speed which allow the fighter to make the tightest turn. This speed(corner velocity)for the F16 is between 331-440
    kts. And now my question:
    When you chase a fighter asuming he is at 20000 ft, how do you manage the speed(corn.vel) ? Keeping the speed close to 440 ? I've said close to 440 kts because at 20000 ft the maximum G force is about 6 to keep the speed constant and at 330 kts is between 4-5 Gs. At 5000 ft you can maintain the speed around 440 at 8 Gs and 330 at 7 Gs.
    My tactic is to use the max limit of the corner velocity at high altitudes and the min limit at low altitudes due to smaller turn radius.
    Do you agree with my tactic?
    The fight is in the horiz. plane .
    Thanks John
    TIGER ]

    Hi Tiger,

    About corner velocity. Try this in F4. Go to 480 Knt's and hit the overide switch and turn hard. The speed comes down but if you balance the throttle (440 - 450 knt's) correctly and master turning without dropping off too much speed you will be deadly when dogfighting. Remember a dogfight is not just on a horizontal plane so experiment until your comfortable with acheiving the best turn rate you can get without blacking out. Another important point Tiger when turning is to keep the F16 within 100 feet to give you an exellent turn radius. turning while pointing the nose up will loose you too much speed so compensate by pointing the nose down slightly and then regaining your normal 100 feet turning rule. You need to experiment with this Tiger until you know it by hart. This is only done by practicing this. This is explained in the manual and you will find later on when doing missions that what you have learned is useful

    Regards

    Rapier
    The Anonymous account was just used to import messages from our old Forum. Anonymous posts are no longer an option ;)
  •  05-04-1999, 3:26 AM 230 in reply to 227

    Re:Corner velocity

    *** Posted by TIGER ***
    Hi Rapier
    Thanks for answering.
    You shouldn't try to keep constant speed at max G. What you said 450-500 kts is the speed where the F16 can keep the speed constant. Remember the Ps curves of the F16 show that you have to keep the speed between 2 limits that are found on the top of the diagram.
    Study very carefully the diagram and then do some training exercises.


    [Hi Tiger,

    About corner velocity. Try this in F4. Go to 480 Knt's and hit the overide switch and turn hard. The speed comes down but if you balance the throttle (440 - 450 knt's) correctly and master turning without dropping off too much speed you will be deadly when dogfighting. Remember a dogfight is not just on a horizontal plane so experiment until your comfortable with acheiving the best turn rate you can get without blacking out. Another important point Tiger when turning is to keep the F16 within 100 feet to give you an exellent turn radius. turning while pointing the nose up will loose you too much speed so compensate by pointing the nose down slightly and then regaining your normal 100 feet turning rule. You need to experiment with this Tiger until you know it by hart. This is only done by practicing this. This is explained in the manual and you will find later on when doing missions that what you have learned is useful

    Regards

    Rapier]
    The Anonymous account was just used to import messages from our old Forum. Anonymous posts are no longer an option ;)
  •  05-04-1999, 3:59 AM 232 in reply to 230

    Re:Corner velocity

    *** Posted by Rapier ***
    [Hi Rapier
    Thanks for answering.
    You shouldn't try to keep constant speed at max G. What you said 450-500 kts is the speed where the F16 can keep the speed constant. Remember the Ps curves of the F16 show that you have to keep the speed between 2 limits that are found on the top of the diagram.
    Study very carefully the diagram and then do some training exercises.
    ]

    Hi Tiger,

    Yes, it's very important to keep at a certain speed when turning because you will find that the harder you pull on the stick the more speed you loose so balancing the throttle at best corner velocity gives you best cornering. Like a race car, go to fast and you'll go off, go to slow and you'll cut the corner and miss the apex completely. The trick is not to turn to hard and to keep the speed just right. I said 450 knt's because have you ever noticed that if you go below 300 Knt's the speed just plumets like someone driving off a cliff. You are right about the P's curves and keeping them within the limits but if you try this when your dogfighting you have taken your eye off the enemy and you will not know where he is. This is why I stress that it's very important to know and judge everything by what you hear, feel, and see. Just say RUN was on a trainging mission and all of a sudden his flight computer goes berserk and his HUD goes on the blink bet when he goes up in training to perform these manuvers he will know them by hart. He'll know what speed he's roughly doing what alt he's roughly at and when and how much to pull back on the stick to give him the best turn rate all without looking at the HUD. Do you see what I mean

    Hope this help's

    Rapier
    The Anonymous account was just used to import messages from our old Forum. Anonymous posts are no longer an option ;)
  •  05-04-1999, 9:06 PM 240 in reply to 230

    Re:Corner velocity

    *** Posted by Rapier ***
    [Hi Rapier
    Thanks for answering.
    You shouldn't try to keep constant speed at max G. What you said 450-500 kts is the speed where the F16 can keep the speed constant. Remember the Ps curves of the F16 show that you have to keep the speed between 2 limits that are found on the top of the diagram.
    Study very carefully the diagram and then do some training exercises.

    ]

    Hi Tiger,

    If you look in your Falcon 4 manual you look at the diagram on chapt 2-3, it's quite interesting. It's the turn performance of the F-16 (though add a couple of digits to get the real F-16 best turn performance). Do you notice anything interesting about this diagram. Remember what I was saying about keeping the airspeed between 450-480 knt's before the tight turn. Notice that the grey curve is missing for the 400-500 Knt's. If you imagine a grey curve between the Mach 0.3 and 0.6 Mach lines. If you were to draw another grey line here according to this diagram you will notice that it gives you the straitest curve of the whole diagram, this is close the the clasified turn rate of the real F-16.

    By the way do you use F22 ADF for any sim action as well. I have just heard that DID have used a beefed up version of the F22 ADF sim to train American pilots in combat training. This is amazing news, what do you rekon.

    Rapier
    The Anonymous account was just used to import messages from our old Forum. Anonymous posts are no longer an option ;)
  •  05-04-1999, 11:03 PM 248 in reply to 232

    Re:Corner velocity

    *** Posted by TIGER ***

    MPO button
    Hi Rapier
    You said that the MPO button is a G limiter. Actually this is wrong. Why?
    The MPO button is used only for restabilish the F16 due an uncontrolled situation. In the real F16 you can't override the limiters I mean you cannot pull more than 9.5 Gs and more than 25' AoA. How MPO works ?
    In an uncontrolled situation FLCS will take the control and you cannot move the mobile surfaces (elevators) anymore, you may enter in a very bad situation. The MPO button was introduced to take control over elevators and take out the F16 from deep stalls or spins.
    TIGER


    [Hi Tiger,

    Yes, it's very important to keep at a certain speed when turning because you will find that the harder you pull on the stick the more speed you loose so balancing the throttle at best corner velocity gives you best cornering. Like a race car, go to fast and you'll go off, go to slow and you'll cut the corner and miss the apex completely. The trick is not to turn to hard and to keep the speed just right. I said 450 knt's because have you ever noticed that if you go below 300 Knt's the speed just plumets like someone driving off a cliff. You are right about the P's curves and keeping them within the limits but if you try this when your dogfighting you have taken your eye off the enemy and you will not know where he is. This is why I stress that it's very important to know and judge everything by what you hear, feel, and see. Just say RUN was on a trainging mission and all of a sudden his flight computer goes berserk and his HUD goes on the blink bet when he goes up in training to perform these manuvers he will know them by hart. He'll know what speed he's roughly doing what alt he's roughly at and when and how much to pull back on the stick to give him the best turn rate all without looking at the HUD. Do you see what I mean

    Hope this help's

    Rapier]
    The Anonymous account was just used to import messages from our old Forum. Anonymous posts are no longer an option ;)
  •  05-04-1999, 11:33 PM 253 in reply to 248

    Re:Corner velocity

    *** Posted by Rapier ***
    [MPO button
    Hi Rapier
    You said that the MPO button is a G limiter. Actually this is wrong. Why?
    The MPO button is used only for restabilish the F16 due an uncontrolled situation. In the real F16 you can't override the limiters I mean you cannot pull more than 9.5 Gs and more than 25' AoA. How MPO works ?
    In an uncontrolled situation FLCS will take the control and you cannot move the mobile surfaces (elevators) anymore, you may enter in a very bad situation. The MPO button was introduced to take control over elevators and take out the F16 from deep stalls or spins.
    TIGER
    ]

    Hi Tiger,

    You are right the overide button is not a G limiter. What I mean is that if you switch the overide on and you pull into a bank as hard as you can I have had the F-16 well over 9.5G's at a pretty fast speed, but not for long. I did this in F4 to test how much G the pilot could take before he blacked out. The F16 could probably take a bit more than the 9 9.5G's but it is not wise to do so. The plane will not break up as soon as it hit's 9G's it saftey limit for the airframe. They took this into consideration when they designed the plane and they always gave the airframe a bit more strenght than stated to stop hot headed pilots from getting to exited and eventually destroying the airframe over a short time.

    What I meant by the overide switch as being a G limiter (must be switched on to test this) is that if you do pull a tight turn and force the most G you can on the airframe the whole airframe act's as a giant speed brake somewhere in the middle of the turn thus reducing speed, thus reducing G to a certain extent. You see it's kind of G limiter it only matters how much the pilot can take and how much force he exerts on the stick.

    Dont be afraid to ask anything Tiger. I am telling you what I have learned in my 1600 hrs of sim training and what I have learned as a sim pilot.

    Regards

    Rapier.
    The Anonymous account was just used to import messages from our old Forum. Anonymous posts are no longer an option ;)
  •  05-04-1999, 11:47 PM 255 in reply to 253

    Re:Corner velocity

    *** Posted by RUN ***
    [Hi Tiger,

    You are right the overide button is not a G limiter. What I mean is that if you switch the overide on and you pull into a bank as hard as you can I have had the F-16 well over 9.5G's at a pretty fast speed, but not for long. I did this in F4 to test how much G the pilot could take before he blacked out. The F16 could probably take a bit more than the 9 9.5G's but it is not wise to do so. The plane will not break up as soon as it hit's 9G's it saftey limit for the airframe. They took this into consideration when they designed the plane and they always gave the airframe a bit more strenght than stated to stop hot headed pilots from getting to exited and eventually destroying the airframe over a short time.

    What I meant by the overide switch as being a G limiter (must be switched on to test this) is that if you do pull a tight turn and force the most G you can on the airframe the whole airframe act's as a giant speed brake somewhere in the middle of the turn thus reducing speed, thus reducing G to a certain extent. You see it's kind of G limiter it only matters how much the pilot can take and how much force he exerts on the stick.

    Dont be afraid to ask anything Tiger. I am telling you what I have learned in my 1600 hrs of sim training and what I have learned as a sim pilot.

    Regards

    Rapier.]

    The MPO switch has no effect on positive g's as long as you are not out of control. When held it overrides the negative g limiter & if the AOA is more than 29 degrees (which means that you are out of control), it overrides the AOA/g limiter and allows rudder inputs.

    RUN
    The Anonymous account was just used to import messages from our old Forum. Anonymous posts are no longer an option ;)
  •  05-04-1999, 11:54 PM 256 in reply to 255

    Re:Corner velocity

    *** Posted by TIGER ***
    I agree with you RUN.
    It's also my opinion.
    I have pulled without MPO on 9.5 Gs
    TIGER





    [The MPO switch has no effect on positive g's as long as you are not out of control. When held it overrides the negative g limiter & if the AOA is more than 29 degrees (which means that you are out of control), it overrides the AOA/g limiter and allows rudder inputs.

    RUN]
    The Anonymous account was just used to import messages from our old Forum. Anonymous posts are no longer an option ;)
  •  05-04-1999, 11:56 PM 257 in reply to 253

    Re:Corner velocity

    *** Posted by TIGER ***
    Hi Rapier
    The limit of the F16 airframe is in region of 12 Gs .
    TIGER






    [Hi Tiger,

    You are right the overide button is not a G limiter. What I mean is that if you switch the overide on and you pull into a bank as hard as you can I have had the F-16 well over 9.5G's at a pretty fast speed, but not for long. I did this in F4 to test how much G the pilot could take before he blacked out. The F16 could probably take a bit more than the 9 9.5G's but it is not wise to do so. The plane will not break up as soon as it hit's 9G's it saftey limit for the airframe. They took this into consideration when they designed the plane and they always gave the airframe a bit more strenght than stated to stop hot headed pilots from getting to exited and eventually destroying the airframe over a short time.

    What I meant by the overide switch as being a G limiter (must be switched on to test this) is that if you do pull a tight turn and force the most G you can on the airframe the whole airframe act's as a giant speed brake somewhere in the middle of the turn thus reducing speed, thus reducing G to a certain extent. You see it's kind of G limiter it only matters how much the pilot can take and how much force he exerts on the stick.

    Dont be afraid to ask anything Tiger. I am telling you what I have learned in my 1600 hrs of sim training and what I have learned as a sim pilot.

    Regards

    Rapier.]
    The Anonymous account was just used to import messages from our old Forum. Anonymous posts are no longer an option ;)
  •  05-05-1999, 12:20 AM 260 in reply to 255

    Re:Corner velocity

    *** Posted by Rapier ***
    [The MPO switch has no effect on positive g's as long as you are not out of control. When held it overrides the negative g limiter & if the AOA is more than 29 degrees (which means that you are out of control), it overrides the AOA/g limiter and allows rudder inputs.

    RUN]

    Hi RUN,

    I fly a F-16 block 50/52 in Falcon 4 and it has a dramatic effect on the positive G's situation even when you are not out of control and pulling a tight turn. I find that it will also give you a much better rate of turn with only minimal touches back and forth on the stick and keeping the AOA at the right amount by looking at the AOA meter on the HUD. I dont like to use the MPO just to pull out of a deep stall, I find it's crucial in it's use to get onto the tail of a bandit. It's also true that F-16 pilots at airshows will flick this switch to show the F-16 off in it's performance. I dont understand what you mean about the 29 degrees in AOA, I have pulled the nose up much more than 29 degrees in AOA without loosing control.

    Thanks

    Rapier
    The Anonymous account was just used to import messages from our old Forum. Anonymous posts are no longer an option ;)
  •  05-05-1999, 12:26 AM 261 in reply to 257

    Re:Corner velocity

    *** Posted by Rapier ***
    [Hi Rapier
    The limit of the F16 airframe is in region of 12 Gs .
    TIGER]

    Hi Tiger,

    That's right, so why are you using just 9 G's. If you have to get out of a tricky situation then it's there for the taking. I've found the limits in F4 for best turn radius.

    below 5000 ft: 370-380 Knt's
    15000 ft (the measured turn altitude):
    477 Knt's
    above 20000 ft: 480-490 Knts

    This is what I have learned without loosing to much speed Tiger. Your figures may be different.

    Rapier
    The Anonymous account was just used to import messages from our old Forum. Anonymous posts are no longer an option ;)
  •  05-05-1999, 12:41 AM 262 in reply to 256

    Re:Corner velocity

    *** Posted by Rapier ***
    [I agree with you RUN.
    It's also my opinion.
    I have pulled without MPO on 9.5 Gs
    TIGER

    ]

    Hi Tiger,

    You said that you cannot overide the limmiters on the real F-16 which is true but you cant overide them in F4 either, with 100 realistic settings on. You said that you have pulled more than 9.5G's without MPO, How is this so? In another message (which I have included above) you say you cant override the 9.5G limit in the real F-16 to confirm this.

    How did you pull more G than the limited amount?

    Regards

    Rapier
    The Anonymous account was just used to import messages from our old Forum. Anonymous posts are no longer an option ;)
  •  05-05-1999, 12:54 AM 263 in reply to 260

    Re:Corner velocity

    *** Posted by RUN ***
    [Hi RUN,

    I fly a F-16 block 50/52 in Falcon 4 and it has a dramatic effect on the positive G's situation even when you are not out of control and pulling a tight turn. I find that it will also give you a much better rate of turn with only minimal touches back and forth on the stick and keeping the AOA at the right amount by looking at the AOA meter on the HUD. I dont like to use the MPO just to pull out of a deep stall, I find it's crucial in it's use to get onto the tail of a bandit. It's also true that F-16 pilots at airshows will flick this switch to show the F-16 off in it's performance. I dont understand what you mean about the 29 degrees in AOA, I have pulled the nose up much more than 29 degrees in AOA without loosing control.

    Thanks

    Rapier ]

    I guess that just shows that the flight sims are not that accurate after all. If you are above 29' AOA in the real jet, its out of control. Where did you get your information about the airshows ? The switch has no function unless you are out of control.

    RUN
    The Anonymous account was just used to import messages from our old Forum. Anonymous posts are no longer an option ;)
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